Okay -- reviving this discussion a bit:

The non-iambic spondee lines (starting words) - 3,5,7,8 and "early" in the last line.

Also note the predominant long "O" sounding words in here (moan, woe) to accent the groaning tones of the message.

Also, usually the "break" that occurs in L8 is delayed by two lines, isn't it?

And finally, not how difficult it is to take a breath while reading aloud lines 5-9.

Can you name all the lines with enjambment?

Well, these items are from my teaching notes from 1967 (my own "moan" and "woe"  ~smile~ ). It's fun for me to be re-visiting this old lesson plan.

But it needs YOUR participation. Tell me what you think of the poem? Does it speak at all to you? Does it have relevance in the 21st century?

Norm

Okay -- another "trigger" --

Let's play "spot the spondee" -- try and find five of them and give a definition you you would, please.

Milton felt that poetry demanded variety (and this guy wrote 400 years ago when strict form was all there was, folks).

Not many coming in here to read or play -- but I will keep teasing those who do join -- even if you're only here to read, let us know you were here.  ~smile~ 

Norm

Hi Prosaic

I'm glad you took up my challenge from the other thread.  A fascinating crit of this poem, had me chuckling into my laptop especially:

Quote:


Norm

Despite reading though Prosaic's post, I'm still none the wiser about why the metaphor.

Also -- a note to Daniel and others regarding that constant debate over caps to begin each line -- clearly it is a "choice" even in modern form poetry. You can clearly see that the masters of previous centuries had no problem with caps even when enjambment is constant. It is, in our modern times, a matter of style --- and consistency. I happen to write sonnets both ways depending on whether or not I am trying to "give the feel" of a classic sonnet in the mold of the masters or to promote a modern theme (uncapped).

Also note the liberty Milton takes with meter and with other conventional "rules" of this strict form. Like Eliot, Byron and many others, the rules are often bent --- but with a purpose!

Norm

Thanks Diane, appreciated.

p.

Hi John,

Norman suggested I pop in here, see if I could offer a paw with this one. I'm honoured, you being an international successfully-published poet. Anyway, here goes... 

Good to see you posting after all this time. I'm sorry you died - I did not even realize you had been ill. Still, this is excellent work - who needs a body, eh?

Thanks for posting this. As usual: (a) I have not read your other crits  - so apologies for any duplications or contradictions and (b) I never see rhythm, so if you have used any my comments will probably cut it.

>JM> On the Late Massacre In Piedmont

Strange title, John - what time was it arranged for?

>JM> by: John Milton (1608-1674)

= Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones 
= Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold; 
= Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old, 
= When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones,

OK so we have a rhyme here, which is usually a tad disappointing for me, however, you seem to conduct it with gravitas so it just-about works. I thought you were the poet who decried the "modern" habit of rhyming?

I know it was the norm back then but I think ditching capitals at the start of every line would aid flow greatly.

Perhaps I should say I do not believe your "Lord" exists but many great works of art are inspired by religious belief, so that's ok - thoughg it does distance me emotionally from this piece.

Suggest change "Even them" to "Even they" - smoother.

"Stocks" these days usually means equities, not a medieval punishment device - suggest you consider a different term there.

"All our fathers" is too all-embracing. Groups of people never agree fully.

I like they way you say "thy truth," indicating that there are various truths - there is no one truth. My own feeling, too - and links into the "moral relativism" of the Twentieth Century (Bertrand Russell etc.). A good read if you can find a pair of eyes to use.

You could ditch "the" in the Alpine line. That and other suggestions are shown thus:

>= Avenge, my Lord, your slaughtered saints,
>= whose bones lie scattered on cold Alpines; 
>= even they who kept your truth so pure
>= when our fathers worshipped
>= religious punishment and murder.

I think that final line is more accurate and says more but does require further work to improve its delivery.

"Mountains" was tautological as the Alpines are mountains. And we can se "mountains in the next verse...

Assuming you find my suggestions helpful, here's a few more...

= Forget not: in thy book record their groans 
= Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold 
= Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled 
= Mother with infant down the rocks. Their moans

>= Forget not those whom bloody Piedmontese killed:
>= mothers-with-infants,
>= thrown down rocky mountain slopes,
>= their mercy-cries dashed to groans...
>= then moans...
>=                           ... then silence.

See, by changing the verse-structure, you can heighten the drama... keep it fluid, Milton!

= The vales redoubled to the hills, and they 
= To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow 
= O'er all the Italian fields, where still doth sway 
= The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow 
= A hundred fold, who, having learnt thy way, 
= Early may fly the Babylonian woe. 

Your first line is a tad superfluous methinks, John.

I hate poetic contractions: let's ditch O'er, shall we. (It's only done to establish a meter anyway).

Grief! Your Lord sounds an avenging type - why didn't he just stop the massacre in the first place? Would have saved a lot of misery you know - do ask him.

>= Their martyred blood and ashes sow 
>= Italian fields of the triple Tyrant;
>= From these may grow a hundred fold, who,
>= having learnt your ways,
>= will avenge the Babylonian dead.

Clever bit about the trident - I like that. But you'll really upset King Neptune, so go easy.

Now, I'm sure I have missed many subtleties and perhaps misunderstood some parts - and I have done this piece-meal - would need harmonizing into a poem again. But I hope some ideas help.

By the way, Piedmont is very peaceful now... I always find t odd how the most peaceful of places can at a point in history, be the most bloody.

All the best, John.

PS Have you found Paradise again, yet? Buy me a pint and a pasty next week and I'll give you a paw searching for it.

Cheers,

p.

Lol! I don't get it. What is the alternate way?  Please explain! lol!----Andy

The blood and ashes sown are the "these", the triple tyrant is the pope who ruled the Italian fields. Start at Their martyred blood.. and read it aloud.